Ground Preparation

Last post 31-08-2009 12:06 AM by spade monkey. 7 replies.

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28/08/2009 04:32 PM
spade monkey Location: earth Joined on: 27 Jul 2009 Posts: 37	Reply \| Contact A bit early perhaps, but I've started thinking about what needs to be done to condition soil and am wondering what people think and do? The soil we're working with is seriously heavy clay and this year has been a bit of an experiment to see how things would get on. Some of the beds were newly dug (or should I say battered) from what was effectively meadow, whilst other areas consist of existing beds, some standard (heavy clay) and some raised (mixed condition). Where we lifted the turf/meadow, we created a turf pile between October '08 and Mar 09 and that has been sitting under cover ever since and hopefully turning into something useful. We also have a few tonnes of municipal compost/topsoil mix that we were thinking of adding to the heavy clay beds as conditioner, but the issue there is if any clopyralids (or the like) are still in it, aparently the longer time in contact with soil, the better the chances of it breaking down. Since there seems to be no reliable test, what we did was test it on some beans, but overall, I'm not sure of the quality as the composting process didn't seem complete (still bits of woody material) and the test bed did not exactly thrive - so that is just for general conditioning I think. My big concern is trying to set-up a growing system that supports soil rather than depleting it; and, whilst it's all very well saying 'add muck' - what if everyone starts wanting to do that? It's not like there are that many horses around any more! What do people think about adding animal manures - how much per sq metre? when etc? Where is it all going to come from if more people start gardening? Also, what about green manures? Then there is comfrey liquid. I'm thinking that is probably good as a plant food when growing, but am wondering about cutting some back as we have some giant specimens and making it into a condensed liquid fertilizer - the question is, would it last (in concentrated form) until next season for use as a plant food? Since it would just be acting as a chemical fertilizer, it adds nothing to the soil structure and condition and from that view, is not much better than agro chemicals? Which all leads on to my two main question (for the moment ) 1. Does anyone have any thoughts about using mycorrhizal fungi to develop healthy soil? 2. How do we sustain long-term soil fertility rather than being dependent on (oil-based) chemical fertilisers that do nothing to maintain healthy soil? Any thoughts much appreciated. Thanks.

28/08/2009 04:32 PM

spade monkey
Location:
earth
Joined on:
27 Jul 2009
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37

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A bit early perhaps, but I've started thinking about what needs to be done to condition soil and am wondering what people think and do?

The soil we're working with is seriously heavy clay and this year has been a bit of an experiment to see how things would get on.

Some of the beds were newly dug (or should I say battered) from what was effectively meadow, whilst other areas consist of existing beds, some standard (heavy clay) and some raised (mixed condition).

Where we lifted the turf/meadow, we created a turf pile between October '08 and Mar 09 and that has been sitting under cover ever since and hopefully turning into something useful.

We also have a few tonnes of municipal compost/topsoil mix that we were thinking of adding to the heavy clay beds as conditioner, but the issue there is if any clopyralids (or the like) are still in it, aparently the longer time in contact with soil, the better the chances of it breaking down. Since there seems to be no reliable test, what we did was test it on some beans, but overall, I'm not sure of the quality as the composting process didn't seem complete (still bits of woody material) and the test bed did not exactly thrive - so that is just for general conditioning I think.

My big concern is trying to set-up a growing system that supports soil rather than depleting it; and, whilst it's all very well saying 'add muck' - what if everyone starts wanting to do that? It's not like there are that many horses around any more!

What do people think about adding animal manures - how much per sq metre? when etc? Where is it all going to come from if more people start gardening?

Also, what about green manures?

Then there is comfrey liquid. I'm thinking that is probably good as a plant food when growing, but am wondering about cutting some back as we have some giant specimens and making it into a condensed liquid fertilizer - the question is, would it last (in concentrated form) until next season for use as a plant food?
Since it would just be acting as a chemical fertilizer, it adds nothing to the soil structure and condition and from that view, is not much better than agro chemicals?

Which all leads on to my two main question (for the moment Smile )

1. Does anyone have any thoughts about using mycorrhizal fungi to develop healthy soil?

2. How do we sustain long-term soil fertility rather than being dependent on (oil-based) chemical fertilisers that do nothing to maintain healthy soil?

Any thoughts much appreciated.

Thanks.

28/08/2009 05:03 PM	In reply to
RogerBee Location: Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire Joined on: 14 Jan 2009 Posts: 86	Reply \| Contact I like the idea of using green manures, and have done so on my allotment, being the first year I have taken it over and want to improve soil condition. I was going to use horse manure but decided that to avoid any possible contamination (however small the risk) to opt for the green alternative. I've only recently sown a small area so cannot comment on it's effectiveness but I found the following site useful http://www.gardeningdata.co.uk/soil/green_manure/green_manure.php for general information on the main types available and when to sow / dig in. Give it a go - it might just work!

28/08/2009 05:03 PM

In reply to

RogerBee
Location:
Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire
Joined on:
14 Jan 2009
Posts:
86

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I like the idea of using green manures, and have done so on my allotment, being the first year I have taken it over and want to improve soil condition. I was going to use horse manure but decided that to avoid any possible contamination (however small the risk) to opt for the green alternative. I've only recently sown a small area so cannot comment on it's effectiveness but I found the following site useful http://www.gardeningdata.co.uk/soil/green_manure/green_manure.php for general information on the main types available and when to sow / dig in.

Give it a go - it might just work!

28/08/2009 05:13 PM	In reply to
bogweevil Location: Joined on: 02 Mar 2004 Posts: 2,043	Reply \| Contact This is fairly good, but be aware that green manures don't actually add organic matter and might even diminish it, although there can be improvements in texture. If my soil was not as dry as the proverbial bone, I would sow Italian ryegrass until mid-September, but since it is dry it must remain uncovered until the rains return. Now to 1. Does anyone have any thoughts about using mycorrhizal fungi to develop healthy soil? These fungi are very important in the wild but there is little evidence that adding those offered for sale helps. Also garden soils are usually rich in phosphorus that suppresses these fungi. 2. How do we sustain long-term soil fertility rather than bein dependent on (oil-based) chemical fertilisers that do nothing to maintain healthy soil? No one really knows which is rather worrying - consider this: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=phosphorus-a-looming-crisis Boggy Beware the bat-eared bogweevil

28/08/2009 05:13 PM

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bogweevil
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This is fairly good, but be aware that green manures don't actually add organic matter and might even diminish it, although there can be improvements in texture. If my soil was not as dry as the proverbial bone, I would sow Italian ryegrass until mid-September, but since it is dry it must remain uncovered until the rains return.

Now to

1. Does anyone have any thoughts about using mycorrhizal fungi to develop healthy soil? These fungi are very important in the wild but there is little evidence that adding those offered for sale helps. Also garden soils are usually rich in phosphorus that suppresses these fungi.

2. How do we sustain long-term soil fertility rather than bein dependent on (oil-based) chemical fertilisers that do nothing to maintain healthy soil? No one really knows which is rather worrying - consider this:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=phosphorus-a-looming-crisis

Boggy

Beware the bat-eared bogweevil

28/08/2009 05:20 PM	In reply to
RogerBee Location: Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire Joined on: 14 Jan 2009 Posts: 86	Reply \| Contact For organic matter there is compost, for soil condition, green manure. As I understand it, clay tends to be fairly high on nutrients and needs condition more than food (at least in the early years of cultivation). Or at least, that's the thinking I'm basing my use of green manure on. Give it a go - it might just work!

28/08/2009 05:20 PM

In reply to

RogerBee
Location:
Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire
Joined on:
14 Jan 2009
Posts:
86

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For organic matter there is compost, for soil condition, green manure. As I understand it, clay tends to be fairly high on nutrients and needs condition more than food (at least in the early years of cultivation). Or at least, that's the thinking I'm basing my use of green manure on.

Give it a go - it might just work!

28/08/2009 06:39 PM	In reply to
sue1002 Location: Ipswich, Suffolk Joined on: 06 Sep 2005 Posts: 5,200	Reply \| Contact Hi spade monkey, the turf pile should break down nicely into something useful, it may take a while but it will be well worth it. Lots of people do use animal manure but since the contaminated manure thing last year, some are now apprehensive about using it. I don't know whereabouts on 'earth' you are but if you're anywhere near the north west, one of our regular posters (Digger) gives horse manure away free and it's guaranteed to be perfectly safe to use. sue1002

28/08/2009 06:39 PM

In reply to

sue1002
Location:
Ipswich, Suffolk
Joined on:
06 Sep 2005
Posts:
5,200

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Hi spade monkey, the turf pile should break down nicely into something useful, it may take a while but it will be well worth it.

Lots of people do use animal manure but since the contaminated manure thing last year, some are now apprehensive about using it. I don't know whereabouts on 'earth' you are but if you're anywhere near the north west, one of our regular posters (Digger) gives horse manure away free and it's guaranteed to be perfectly safe to use.

sue1002

28/08/2009 11:23 PM	In reply to
Laura Location: London Joined on: 02 Aug 2009 Posts: 14	Reply \| Contact There is no easy solution. If your clay is really heavy, then improving drainage will be your main concern and nothing does that as well as adding organic matter. Our allotment was solid london clay and we just built our own compost heap and fed it from our garden and kitchen, friends gardens and kitchens and a couple of local stables who were happy to give away fresh manure (which broke down in about 6 months if mixed with the other stuff). We are in year four and we now have soil which is moist and crumbly and grows fantastic veg and flowers. So it can be done. Good luck

28/08/2009 11:23 PM

In reply to

Laura
Location:
London
Joined on:
02 Aug 2009
Posts:
14

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There is no easy solution. If your clay is really heavy, then improving drainage will be your main concern and nothing does that as well as adding organic matter. Our allotment was solid london clay and we just built our own compost heap and fed it from our garden and kitchen, friends gardens and kitchens and a couple of local stables who were happy to give away fresh manure (which broke down in about 6 months if mixed with the other stuff). We are in year four and we now have soil which is moist and crumbly and grows fantastic veg and flowers. So it can be done.

Good luck

30/08/2009 08:45 PM	In reply to
Alix Location: Bristol Joined on: 19 Dec 2008 Posts: 47	Reply \| Contact I know what you mean about municipal compost, I've used it and it was rubbish. When I worked on a community garden we used to get large amounts of dead leaves delivered by the council parks dept. Leaf mould is excellent but collect as much as you can as it breaks down to very little, and make sure if its from the council that it is from parks and not roads. Save all your compost from home. I have also used the contents of rabbit cages, aswell as waste from the ornamental plants in my garden sometimes. And lawn mowings. I'm fairly sure that using feeds made from nettles and comfrey help soil fertility in the sense that they encourage microlife as well as adding a wide balance of nutrients, both the major ones - N, P, K, and minor ones like iron and calcium. I use comfrey for fruiting plants and nettles for leaf. Both are also very good added to compost. Comfrey is good because its deep roots bring up nutrients from down where other plants cant reach. Have a patch next to your compost heap to pick up run off goodness. Then you can save on all the energy, fuel, packaging etc required to bring a fertiliser to the shop and for you to buy it. Consider the latent energy of the product compared to one from a leaf you can pick at home. Using green manures surely gives you something to add to the compost when cut down? And leguminous ones can improve the nitrate content. They also protect the microlife from frost when used in conjunction with a no-dig system. If you can initially get your clay into good enough condition to follow this system, the mycorrhizal fungi will take care of themselves and good fertility will build up over a period of a few years. Clay does hold on to nutrients better than any other soil due to the large number of binding sites (small areas of electrical polarity that bond to similar, oppositely charged sites on particles of organic matter etc). When you have got some nice soil to work with you may well find that the plants do not need feeding as much as you may think, especially if you are prudent with your crop rotation and allow some beds to lie fallow occaisionally. Some one put a post on this site only recently claiming to never feed their crops and always get a good result anyway. Fruiting crops, apart from a initial dose of compost or chicken pellets or something, I never feed them until they start to set fruit. I give a little to leafy stuff, especially brassicas, but nothing really to roots, apart from spuds in bags.

30/08/2009 08:45 PM

In reply to

Alix
Location:
Bristol
Joined on:
19 Dec 2008
Posts:
47

Reply | Contact

I know what you mean about municipal compost, I've used it and it was rubbish. When I worked on a community garden we used to get large amounts of dead leaves delivered by the council parks dept. Leaf mould is excellent but collect as much as you can as it breaks down to very little, and make sure if its from the council that it is from parks and not roads. Save all your compost from home. I have also used the contents of rabbit cages, aswell as waste from the ornamental plants in my garden sometimes. And lawn mowings. I'm fairly sure that using feeds made from nettles and comfrey help soil fertility in the sense that they encourage microlife as well as adding a wide balance of nutrients, both the major ones - N, P, K, and minor ones like iron and calcium. I use comfrey for fruiting plants and nettles for leaf. Both are also very good added to compost. Comfrey is good because its deep roots bring up nutrients from down where other plants cant reach. Have a patch next to your compost heap to pick up run off goodness. Then you can save on all the energy, fuel, packaging etc required to bring a fertiliser to the shop and for you to buy it. Consider the latent energy of the product compared to one from a leaf you can pick at home. Using green manures surely gives you something to add to the compost when cut down? And leguminous ones can improve the nitrate content. They also protect the microlife from frost when used in conjunction with a no-dig system. If you can initially get your clay into good enough condition to follow this system, the mycorrhizal fungi will take care of themselves and good fertility will build up over a period of a few years. Clay does hold on to nutrients better than any other soil due to the large number of binding sites (small areas of electrical polarity that bond to similar, oppositely charged sites on particles of organic matter etc). When you have got some nice soil to work with you may well find that the plants do not need feeding as much as you may think, especially if you are prudent with your crop rotation and allow some beds to lie fallow occaisionally. Some one put a post on this site only recently claiming to never feed their crops and always get a good result anyway. Fruiting crops, apart from a initial dose of compost or chicken pellets or something, I never feed them until they start to set fruit. I give a little to leafy stuff, especially brassicas, but nothing really to roots, apart from spuds in bags.

31/08/2009 12:06 AM	In reply to
spade monkey Location: earth Joined on: 27 Jul 2009 Posts: 37	Reply \| Contact Hi and thanks for all the responses - lots to think about... ***************************************************************** @RogerBee Which green manure have you tried? Re what you said about clay, from what I've read, yes, for the new beds (from meadow) it is the condition we'd like to improve - rather than 'fine tilth', the tendency seems to be 'iron clump'. @bogweevil When you say: "...be aware that green manures don't actually add organic matter and might even diminish it" I saw your post when searching the forum: http://mygarden.rhs.org.uk/forums/p/17916/18917.aspx#18917 Whilst the gardenindata site refers to green manures adding humus, I'd have thought the nature of digging in those as compared to animal manure would be quite different in what they give the soil. What do you think about winter field beans? http://www.ukagriculture.com/crops/field_beans_uk.cfm talks about them being more susceptible to disease. Re the mycorrhizal fungi, I was thinking about them in terms of 'no-dig' beds because if digging, then I guess any advantage would be lost - but 'no-dig' is dependent on mulching and that has got to come from somewhere. The phosphorus article looks interesting from the preview, but I'll have to search elsewhere as I don't have a subscription to to see the whole thing. I can see the potential for a shift to recycle human manure as a resource rather than treating it like sewage. @sue1002 Definitely hoping that will be the case - as the pile was made over some months, I'm hoping it's time to check the oldest end and see what's going on as that has been there nearly a year. The business with the aminopyralids makes things tricky re muck - tried contacting Dow AgroSciences and after initial promising response, deeper questioning was ignored. DOW voluntarily suspended sales of aminopyralids in 2008 I think, and the PSD (Pesticides Safety Directorate) had this to say: "...However, the approvals for marketing and use of aminopyralid-containing products will remain suspended while investigations into the circumstances of the phytotoxicity continue. The analysis reported below is part of that investigation." ...but what if farmers are still using it from store-room supplies, and how likely is it to turn up in this years rotted muck? If I had a trailer, it would be nice to take advantage of Digger's muck! @Laura We have 5 compost bays on the go, but they are not ready yet. Something that did seem to help was mounding to help the drainage, but what we really need is stuff to add to condition - no escape from time and patience I guess. @Alix I definitely know what you mean with the municipal stuff. I went to the yard and specifically pointed out the aged pile I liked the look of and was assured that's what I'd get. Maybe I didn't check it closely enough, but the stuff that was delivered didn't seem as good... and once they'd dropped off 7 tonnes there was no way I could take it back in the fiesta. Particularly vexing in that there seem to be bits of glass in some of it - suspiciously like shattered windscreen. When I asked the guy in charge of the composting about clopyralids and aminopyralids he hadn't a clue what I was talking about. Comfrey by the compost bins sounds like a good idea. The municipal stuff will do for mixing in to some of the clay, but I certainly wouldn't consider getting more because there is no way to track what has gone into it. I was thinking about the mycorrhizal fungi as a way to add some 'life' to what I look on as municipal filler rather than compost. We know someone who uses a commercial no-dig system on about an acre, but he needs to import about 12 tonnes of material a year! Difficult to sustain if lots of people suddenly want stuff as well. ************************************************************* If the phosphorus famine article that bogweevil posted a link to is anything to go by, resources are going to be an increasingly serious issue as well. If you wanted to invent a perfect storm, the candidates are lining up thick and fast - Wondering about the potential impact of climate change is the least of it... increasing population, dwindling mineral resources, the peak oil idea, potable water, soil erosion and economic meltdown (to name but a few) - blimey, it could be peak everything. No wonder more people are getting into gardening.

31/08/2009 12:06 AM

In reply to

spade monkey
Location:
earth
Joined on:
27 Jul 2009
Posts:
37

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Hi and thanks for all the responses - lots to think about...

*******************************************************************

@RogerBee
Which green manure have you tried?
Re what you said about clay, from what I've read, yes, for the new beds (from meadow) it is the condition we'd like to improve - rather than 'fine tilth', the tendency seems to be 'iron clump'.

@bogweevil
When you say:
"...be aware that green manures don't actually add organic matter and might even diminish it"
I saw your post when searching the forum:
http://mygarden.rhs.org.uk/forums/p/17916/18917.aspx#18917
Whilst the gardenindata site refers to green manures adding humus, I'd have thought the nature of digging in those as compared to animal manure would be quite different in what they give the soil.

What do you think about winter field beans?
http://www.ukagriculture.com/crops/field_beans_uk.cfm talks about them being more susceptible to disease.

Re the mycorrhizal fungi, I was thinking about them in terms of 'no-dig' beds because if digging, then I guess any advantage would be lost - but 'no-dig' is dependent on mulching and that has got to come from somewhere.

The phosphorus article looks interesting from the preview, but I'll have to search elsewhere as I don't have a subscription to to see the whole thing. I can see the potential for a shift to recycle human manure as a resource rather than treating it like sewage.

@sue1002
Definitely hoping that will be the case - as the pile was made over some months, I'm hoping it's time to check the oldest end and see what's going on as that has been there nearly a year.
The business with the aminopyralids makes things tricky re muck - tried contacting Dow AgroSciences and after initial promising response, deeper questioning was ignored. DOW voluntarily suspended sales of aminopyralids in 2008 I think, and the PSD (Pesticides Safety Directorate) had this to say:
"...However, the approvals for marketing and use of aminopyralid-containing products will remain suspended while investigations into the circumstances of the phytotoxicity continue. The analysis reported below is part of that investigation."
...but what if farmers are still using it from store-room supplies, and how likely is it to turn up in this years rotted muck?

If I had a trailer, it would be nice to take advantage of Digger's muck!

@Laura
We have 5 compost bays on the go, but they are not ready yet. Something that did seem to help was mounding to help the drainage, but what we really need is stuff to add to condition - no escape from time and patience I guess.

@Alix
I definitely know what you mean with the municipal stuff. I went to the yard and specifically pointed out the aged pile I liked the look of and was assured that's what I'd get. Maybe I didn't check it closely enough, but the stuff that was delivered didn't seem as good... and once they'd dropped off 7 tonnes there was no way I could take it back in the fiesta. Particularly vexing in that there seem to be bits of glass in some of it - suspiciously like shattered windscreen. When I asked the guy in charge of the composting about clopyralids and aminopyralids he hadn't a clue what I was talking about.

Comfrey by the compost bins sounds like a good idea.

The municipal stuff will do for mixing in to some of the clay, but I certainly wouldn't consider getting more because there is no way to track what has gone into it. I was thinking about the mycorrhizal fungi as a way to add some 'life' to what I look on as municipal filler rather than compost.

We know someone who uses a commercial no-dig system on about an acre, but he needs to import about 12 tonnes of material a year! Difficult to sustain if lots of people suddenly want stuff as well.

***************************************************************

If the phosphorus famine article that bogweevil posted a link to is anything to go by, resources are going to be an increasingly serious issue as well.

If you wanted to invent a perfect storm, the candidates are lining up thick and fast - Wondering about the potential impact of climate change is the least of it... increasing population, dwindling mineral resources, the peak oil idea, potable water, soil erosion and economic meltdown (to name but a few) - blimey, it could be peak everything. No wonder more people are getting into gardening.

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